Subject: Cider Digest #2070, 25 April 2017 Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 23:34:08 -0600 (MDT) From: cider-request@talisman.com Cider Digest #2070 25 April 2017 Cider and Perry Discussion Forum Contents: Nitrogen Question ("Richard Anderson") Re: Bad Air (James Werner) Re: Nitrogen fertilization impacts on cider fruit quality and juice (Claud...) Re: suggestions for finishing up an ice cider (Claude Jolicoeur) Bad Air? (John Howard) Nitrogen fertilization impacts on cider fruit quality and juice (John Howard) Nitrogen fertilization (Andrew Lea) NOTE: Digest appears whenever there is enough material to send one. Send ONLY articles for the digest to cider@talisman.com. Use cider-request@talisman.com for subscribe/unsubscribe/admin requests. Archives of the Digest are available at www.talisman.com/cider#Archives Digest Janitor: Dick Dunn ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: Nitrogen Question From: "Richard Anderson" Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2017 11:19:05 -0700 Conventional wisdom is that mature cider apples be low in nitrogen so that the fermentation is slow. When I planted using 2 year old nursery propagated stock, our soils test showed NO3 @ 47#/A and NH4 @ 7#/A. In addition to Potassium @100#/A and Phosphorus @250#/A I drip irrigated with agricultural nitrogen for the first year to grow wood per the test results (1/8#/Tree) and have not used nitrogen since. What I do remember is that the guy at the fertilizer plant seem reluctant to sell me any nitrogen perhaps thinking I was a bomb maker. ------------------------------ Subject: Re: Bad Air From: James Werner Date: Sat, 22 Apr 2017 18:26:08 +0000 (UTC) When I from rack one vessel to another and have concern about oxygen exposure, I purge the vessel it's going into with CO2 (which is heavier than air) then use one of those orange carboy caps with racking cane in center hole and push the liquid into purged vessel with CO2 through the 2nd side hole. This should keep exposure to the air to almost nothing. ------------------------------ Subject: Re: Nitrogen fertilization impacts on cider fruit quality and juice From: Claude Jolicoeur Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2017 12:47:07 -0400 In CD 2069: > Subject: Nitrogen fertilization impacts on cider fruit quality and juice quali ty > From: Rebecca Thistlethwaite > > My question is this: how does nitrogen fertilizer applications affect fruit > quality and ultimately cider quality? Yes, in 2 ways: 1- nitrogen will contribute in producing larger fruits which contains proportionally more water, hence a dilution effect on the juice. 2- nitrogen-rich juice is more nutritive for yeast, hence contributing to larger initial yeast population, faster fermentation, and potentially higher risk of H2S production during fermentation. > What kinds of nitrogen fertilization are cider orchards using? > How frequently, total poundage per year? > Any affects on cider juice quality that you know of? I can't give you numbers on acceptable amounts - this isn't just black or white. I know of some cider orchards where they only use mineral fertilisation, and in minimal quantities. This is also related to the yield you are expecting from your orchard... Claude Jolicoeur ------------------------------ Subject: Re: suggestions for finishing up an ice cider From: Claude Jolicoeur Date: Sun, 23 Apr 2017 13:01:57 -0400 In CD 2069, Phillip Kelm added to the conversation on: suggestions for finishing up an ice cider > In response to Claude's three choices to stabilize a cider, I'll offer two > more. One facility I work with uses a combination of KMBS and potassium > sorbate before back-sweetening to suppress fermentation. Not everybody's > cup of tea, but it is effective. My fault, I wrote my last post too quickly. You are totally right, and I should have added that chemical stabilisation with sulfite and sorbate should be used after the cold crash/sterile filtration process in order to insure stability. This is because the cold crash/sterile filtration process will not insure there is no more nutrients left in there, and the sterile filtration might let a few yeast cells go through. Then it remains technically possible a small yeast population could regrow in the bottled ice cider. As Phillip says, this addition of chemicals will insure no further yeast growth can take place. The same chemical cocktail would also be recommended in combination with pasteurisation, as, depending on the number of PU's, there might be a very low fraction of surviving yeast cells, and the chemicals are then needed to insure no further multiplication. Claude Jolicoeur ------------------------------ Subject: Bad Air? From: John Howard Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2017 14:19:24 +0000 When racking, I purge the receiving carboy with CO2 and let it settle then dribble a stream of CO2 into the outgoing carboy during racking. Introduce the cider into the bottom of the receiving vessel and try to avoid splashing. Who knows if it does anything but it amuses me. Cheers! John Howard Philadlephia PA USA ------------------------------ Subject: Nitrogen fertilization impacts on cider fruit quality and juice From: John Howard Date: Mon, 24 Apr 2017 14:27:28 +0000 Conventional wisdom in cider circles is that a slow, low nitrogen, fermentation is best. Apples from old unfertilized orchards are prized for this reason. The French (masters of the slow ferment) extract nitrogen from the orchard grass in the spring and summer by grazing animals there. ------------------------------ Subject: Nitrogen fertilization From: Andrew Lea Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2017 17:39:45 +0100 > Subject: Nitrogen fertilization impacts on cider fruit quality and juice quali ty > From: Rebecca Thistlethwaite > Date: Wed, 19 Apr 2017 09:22:15 -0700 > > What kinds of nitrogen fertilization are cider orchards using? FWIW I have copied the current UK commercial recommendations from the UK Cider Apple Growers Guide and you can download it here www.cider.org.uk/nitrate.pdf . Note that these are directed towards UK cider varieties, not US dessert varieties. Also, many craft UK cidermakers would scarcely use any nitrogen at all (see below and also http://www.cider.org.uk/nitro.htm) > Any affects on cider juice quality that you know of? Generally, high N means poor storing fruit, fast fermentation, lower tannin and generally lower cider quality, though of course fruit yield will be higher. (See the table on this page http://www.cider.org.uk/tannin.htm) However, it very much depends on what sort of cider you want to make. If you are interested in 'industrial' cider from dessert fruit, then high N may not be a problem to you. But if you want to make high quality slow fermenting 'craft' cider from heritage apples, then to some extent the lower the nitrogen the better. It is even possible to get it so low that the cider 'sticks' i.e. it cannot finish fermentation. Some cidermakers would welcome this, but many wouldn't. My advice is to liaise with the cidermaker, if you are not cidermaking yourself, to be sure that you understand their objectives and what kind of cider they plan to make. One size doesn't fit all. Andrew Lea nr Oxford, UK www.cider.org.uk ------------------------------ End of Cider Digest #2070 *************************